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Re: sgml-tools for Linuxdoc

Hi. I am now the maintainer for Debian package of sgml-tools (v1).

I subscribed this list (ldp-discuss) several days ago.

I add sgml-tools list as Cc:, because I think it is the place
for "upstream" development of this sgml-tools.

# I subscribed to sgml-tools list also.

I add jf list as Cc: additionally, because it is related to my 
motivation to maintain this package :) as well as debian-sgml@debian.org
and debian-doc@debian.or.jp.

In <19991217203820.A122@localhost>, at Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:38:21 -0800,
  on Subject: sgml-tools for Linuxdoc, <dave@lafn.org> writes:

> Many months ago I submitted a bug report to the Debian Distribution
> regarding sgml-tools.  I complained about too many blank lines.  Finally,
> someone (Taketoshi Sano) is responding to this.  When I told him we
> were still requiring sgml-tools (linuxdoc) for Howtos he checked LDP's
> website.  Unfortunately, our site at first gives the erroneous
> impression that we are accepting DocBook for Howtos but then later
> corrects that.  I complained about this before and I now have an
> example of the confusion it may cause.  But the main purpose of this
> post is not to complain about our website (although improvement is
> needed).   
> Taketoshi Sano has volunteered to fix real bugs in the Debian Package
> for sgml-tools.  This is good news since then one can automatically
> covert it to a Redhat rpm package, making it easy for authors to use
> it:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 09:56:26AM +0900, Taketoshi Sano wrote:
> > Anyway, I will work to fix "real" bugs in the current Debian package 
> > of sgml-tools.

My motivation to maintain this package is to use it for translation
of current LDP documents. I am a member of JF Project as well as
a member of Debian. JF (Japanese FAQ) Project is a group to collect
and distribute the documents related to Linux and written in Japanese,
and it's activity includes the translation LDP documents into Japanese,
as well as the translation of the document in Linux kernel source (such
as the Configure.help file under Documentation/ directory). Of course
some original documents are written by the members of JF Project.
 (I myself write some little one :)

The web site of JF is http://jf.linux.or.jp/ (sorry this page is currently 
provided only in Japanese). 

In JF Project, the hacked version of Linuxdoc-SGML, and later another
hacked version of sgml-tools are used. The modification is mainly for
enhancement in Japanese support, and the addition of two extra tags
for translators: <trans> and <tdate>. <trans> is for the name of
translators, and <tdate> is for the date&time for the translation.

We (the members of JF Project) needs these enhancement for sgml-tools,
so I have added these modification on the Debian package of sgml-tools.

I don't think it is right to generate derivatives of DTD with the same 
name, so I changed the name of hacked DTD (previously the modified DTD 
with the two extra tags were called as linuxdoc DTD in JF project) to
linuxdoctr (linuxdoc for translators) dtd, and added it as a new DTD
in sgml-tools. So current Debian package of sgml-tools 1.0.9 has 
support for the original linuxdoc DTD and the derived linuxdoctr DTD.
commands in sgml-tools (sgml2txt, sgml2html, sgml2latex) are modified
to support this new derived DTD.

The enhancement for Japanese support is mainly modification to sgml2txt.
sgml2html can handle Japanese characters as original, so I only added
the label for Japanese in Lang.pm. sgml2txt uses groff, and current
groff can not handle Japanese characters correctly, so we need to use
jgroff and it's "-Tnippon" output device.

# I think the right way is to add the japanese support on groff, 
# and some members in Debian project and Debian JP project are
# working on this, but it is difficult work and it will take some
# longer time to solve this, so I decide to use jgroff.

Option "-Tnippon" is only used when "-c nippon" is used for sgml2txt.
So users who do not need Japanese support can use normal groff safely.

sgml2latex is also modified to call "jlatex" command when "-c nippon"
is used.

I have made some modifications on sgml-tools 1.0.9, as a separate work 
from the enhancement above for translation of LDP documents in JF.
They includes:

 the "too many blank lines in output from sgml2txt" problem 
 which was reported by David Lawyer against 1.0.7, 

   * add new option "blank (b)" for sgml2txt to cut the continuous
     blank lines. modifications are done in fmt_txt.pl and related
     manpages. The default is 3, but is can be disscussed more.
       - Closes: #27094

 the "the section number/letter in output from sgml2txt is inconsistent
 after <appendix> tag" problem which was reported by Nikhil Nair against 1.5.1, 

   * modify lib/dist/fmt_txt.pl and lib/dist/sgmltools/groff/mapping
     to enable sgml2txt output appendix numbering as letter correctly
      - Closes: #2669

 the "can not handle the filename with spaces" problem reported
 by Inaky Perez Gonzalez against 1.0.5,

   * modify lib/SGMLTools.pm, lib/dist/fmt_txt.pl, and lib/dist/fmt_rtf.pl
     to enable the handling of a filename with spaces for text and rtf
       - Closes: #27488

and some more.

   * modify Makefile.in to rewrite man pages and to replace some
      - Closes: #40349
   * modify lib/dist/sgmltools/groff/mapping to suppress error messages
     about undefined LH and RH. Closes: #50121
   * modify lib/dist/fmt_txt.pl to convert entities such as &lt; and &gt;
     when "--man" is specified.
       - Closes: #24467
   * support "-l pl" for polish language, taking the patch from
     Thanks for "Konrad Roziewski" for this patch.

> He's already fixed the "too many blank lines" problem in v1.0.9 by
> introducing an option to select the maximum number of contiguous blank
> lines.  But what is version 1.1.15?  Where does it come from and what
> is it based on.  There are also patches to fix 1.1.15.  (This result
> is 1.1.16?)  Is it better than v1.0.9 (or v1.0.11)?

I think 1.1.15 is one of the prior series to the current upstream
development version (2.0.2). If you use Debian, then install sgmltools-2
package and check /usr/doc/sgmltools-2/changelog.gz.

> Note that the "too many blank lines" problem was also fixed by someone
> in Brazil who came out with what he called v1.0.11 but later removed
> it from his site and said it was a "bug".

I don't know about 1.0.11. I have checked the upstream's development ML
(sgmltools@via.ecp.fr) via their Web, and someone wrote that there were
1.0.10 and 1.0.11, and they were used by ldp people, but they are not
authorized by upstream.

> Are there more real bugs in sgml-tools?  I found that I couldn't use
> certain symbols in section names.  It didn't like "quotes" there.
> This may not be a bug as the manual says that sometimes you need to
> use &dquot instead of ".  

I think to use "&dquot;" is the right way to handle this.

In <385DF979.71534C25@mail.nyx.net>, at Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:40:09 +0100,
  on Subject: Re: sgml-tools for Linuxdoc, Stein Gjoen <sgjoen@mail.nyx.net> writes:

> Another annoying bug is that any <tt> tags in a heading causes
> these entries in the table of contents to cut the title at the
> position of the tag.
> Example:
> HTML:      6.3 Linux md Kernel Patch
>    12.8 fstab      
> ASCII:     6.3 Linux
>    12.8 (TT
> These bugs have been pointed out on this list earlier, isn't it
> time to keep a list of bugs and suggestions? We seem to be
> rehashing these issues at LDP regularly yet very little has
> happened until now.

Can you show me the sample sgml file ? I think this problem
has been fixed in upstream. I have not worked on this, but
sgml-tools 1.0.9 does not show this problem when I create
and check a sample sgml file.

In <19991220144253.C1182@victis.oeil.qc.ca>, at Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:42:53 +0100,
  on Subject: Re: sgml-tools for Linuxdoc, Guylhem Aznar <guylhemlistes@free.fr> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 12:40:16PM +0100, Hugo.van.der.Kooij@caiw.nl wrote:
> > As long as the LDP does not take control of the sgml-tools (the v1 stuff)
> > the tools will remain unmaintained.
> > Ackwardly enough the tools are unmaintained for over a year now and LDP
> > still relies on linuxdoc sgml for all the documents without bothering to
> > maintain a toolkit.
> We already talked about this.
> If someone is willing to maintain the sgml-tools, a section can be added
> on www.linuxdoc.org.

I have commited my patch for sgml-tools 1.0.9 (excluding Debian specific part)
into http://jf.linux.or.jp/workshop/archives/diff.sgml-tools-1.0.9.jf4.gz
(31596 bytes) via our CVS (for JF maintanance)

You can download and check it from there. Note this patch is under checking
by other members in JF for the system other than Debian. I have only Debian,
so I can't check it on other environment.

I think the upstream, Cees de Groot <cg@sgmltools.org>, and members in
sgml-tools list may have something to advise for us.

I currently do not have a plan to enhance this sgml-tools (v1) anymore, and 
only intend to fix the bugs. I have heard that DocBook DTD, or XML (DocBK)
has more power, and moving toward them is expected in the long span.

# I am personally interested in writing documents with graphics using
# DocBook DTD, because linuxdoc DTD can not handle graphics. But I don't
# have enough time to learn about DocBook currently,,,


  Taketoshi Sano: <sano@debian.org>,<sano@debian.or.jp>,<kgh12351@nifty.ne.jp>

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